New time off between shifts mandate. Big change

[Mike Kilo]

Remember that time they told us people were going to get fired if they didn’t get the poke?

…did that happen?

Nope. I feel like a class action lawsuit from people who felt forced to get it is in order.

Yeah I remember all of the idiots lining up for the poke for a time off reward

I got so many pokes (giggity). Apparently when I’m on six day work weeks I don’t mind being a lab rat for some paid time off.

 

[32andBelow]

Yeah I remember all of the idiots lining up for the poke for a time off reward

Still waiting to die

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Idk about you all but I would love if our natca president or another rep was on CNN Monday morning blasting the FAA on how they’ve operated this system for the past decade and drove it off a cliff.

 

[SquawkHijack]

Nah, let’s hire direct all facilities! Let’s fix the staffing at the source! Down with trickle up staffanomics!

Lol yeah and waste more time and pay for suck-asses who had no business where they were and washed out. Nice plan hoss.

Do you realize how many people are already too intimidated to apply for this job? Now increase attrition by ten fold and let us know how that goes. You’ve effectively brought forth a shit idea. The FAA is never going to do that so we have to start at the lower level facilities and let people trickle up, really no way around it at this point.

 

[CoffeeIV]

we have to start at the lower level facilities and let people trickle up, really no way around it at this point.

Because that's working so well. You could direct hire and wash people out on the sims at higher level facilities easily since they would all be in their one year probation.

 

[Shikaka]

Lol yeah and waste more time and pay for suck-asses who had no business where they were and washed out. Nice plan hoss.

Do you realize how many people are already too intimidated to apply for this job? Now increase attrition by ten fold and let us know how that goes. You’ve effectively brought forth a shit idea. The FAA is never going to do that so we have to start at the lower level facilities and let people trickle up, really no way around it at this point.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-moves-accelerate-air-traffic-controller-hiring-enhancing-college-training-program

 

[SquawkHijack]

Because that's working so well. You could direct hire and wash people out on the sims at higher level facilities easily since they would all be in their one year probation.

Direct hires don’t bring enough numbers. That would still waste time and result in the termination of dozens of good candidates for other slower facilities. I think you’re blind to the fact that starting slow and gaining experience to move up to busier facilities works. Not just experience working traffic, but as an agency employee, as a BUE, how to work the slate book, dealing with bullshit from OS/OMs. The environment at busier facilities is NOT like most lower levels.

All in all, there is a reason the agency will not let people go direct to busy facilities, (Z’s are obviously different) kind of like how the Union and the agency won’t discuss a serious pay raise for changing times. We would quite literally have to change federal law to raise the statutory pay cap for that so a new pay schedule could be generated, since those at 12’s get paid the same as SES/4 star general officers.

There are reasons why the agency doesn’t make drastic changes like these. You guys need to understand the impact of something like that. Not to mention the CPCs who would quit because they’re tired of training shitty devs that barely made it past the sims.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-moves-accelerate-air-traffic-controller-hiring-enhancing-college-training-program

For clarity, I am referring to OTS since that’s the bulk of the FAA’s hiring pool.

But I’ll say that the CTI streamlining was a good move, they get more classroom time that the academy and actual live training/experience.

 

[32andBelow]

For clarity, I am referring to OTS since that’s the bulk of the FAA’s hiring pool.

But I’ll say that the CTI streamlining was a good move, they get more classroom time that the academy and actual live training/experience.

After they totally destroyed the program!

Direct hires don’t bring enough numbers. That would still waste time and result in the termination of dozens of good candidates for other slower facilities. I think you’re blind to the fact that starting slow and gaining experience to move up to busier facilities works. Not just experience working traffic, but as an agency employee, as a BUE, how to work the slate book, dealing with bullshit from OS/OMs. The environment at busier facilities is NOT like most lower levels.

All in all, there is a reason the agency will not let people go direct to busy facilities, (Z’s are obviously different) kind of like how the Union and the agency won’t discuss a serious pay raise for changing times. We would quite literally have to change federal law to raise the statutory pay cap for that so a new pay schedule could be generated, since those at 12’s get paid the same as SES/4 star general officers.

There are reasons why the agency doesn’t make drastic changes like these. You guys need to understand the impact of something like that. Not to mention the CPCs who would quit because they’re tired of training shitty devs that barely made it past the sims.

You can still offer them the nest if they are promising

 

[Mike Kilo]

Lol yeah and waste more time and pay for suck-asses who had no business where they were and washed out. Nice plan hoss.

Do you realize how many people are already too intimidated to apply for this job? Now increase attrition by ten fold and let us know how that goes. You’ve effectively brought forth a shit idea. The FAA is never going to do that so we have to start at the lower level facilities and let people trickle up, really no way around it at this point.

NCEPT puts suck asses where they don’t belong now. I know every tower I’ve been to has a lot of direct hires from 07-09 that did fine and washout rates haven’t dropped that much since then. The failures would be able to trickle down and maybe those washouts would be more amenable to staying and staffing the low facilities than people who start at those facilities. I can’t imagine A80 picking up a level 5 tower vs an OTS is much of a difference. Neither one has any clue what real high level Tracon is like. But I digress, it was sarcasm.

 

[wrench978]

Direct hire would be a HUGE benefit to places like ZSU though. Since I’ve been here, approximately 6 years, we have seen more than 30 people move down here and either quit or hardship. The agency forced 10 of us down here from my academy class and a couple around mine. There are 3 of us left. If you’re not from PR, the adjustment to living here can be a tough one. Having the ability to hire directly would ensure that more of the controllers here aren’t trying to figure out a way out on day 1. And I know that anyone can request ZSU at the academy, but the odds of even getting to that point are slim enough. Let us hire directly…

 

[SquawkHijack]

After they totally destroyed the program!


You can still offer them the nest if they are promising

They kinda did lol I’ll give you that.

Coffee was talking about washing them out and firing them on the premise that they’d still be inside their one year probationary period, which is a shit take and isn’t quite how that works but there’s also no guarantee they would be offered a NEST list in that event. And if they do, that’s already one washout on their record. And before everyone says “well then don’t suck” we’re supposed to be hiring, training and fixing our staffing issue. Not playing as judges on America’s Next Top Controller, so why do this in the first place. Sure, I would theoretically say give a NEST for anyone promising. But let’s be honest, what would that number look like for a bunch of OTS peeps walking straight into a level 12 with zero experience?

NCEPT puts suck asses where they don’t belong now. I know every tower I’ve been to has a lot of direct hires from 07-09 that did fine and washout rates haven’t dropped that much since then. The failures would be able to trickle down and maybe those washouts would be more amenable to staying and staffing the low facilities than people who start at those facilities. I can’t imagine A80 picking up a level 5 tower vs an OTS is much of a difference. Neither one has any clue what real high level Tracon is like. But I digress, it was sarcasm.

It’s the “maybe” and “failures would be able to trickle down” for me. Again, why not just trickle up with that said and let CPCs move up as trainees certify? It really only extends the timeline of things by average training time and maximizes the use of experience and training success.

You guys want this staffing issue fixed tomorrow (hell I do too) but it’s just not going to work that way.

 

[ROMAJC]

In 2008 new controllers went to 12 Tracons and the failure rate was the same if not less than now.

I’d take a new hire over a low level tower controller any day. Shit. Even low level Tracon and mid level tower.

They study more, train harder, more spongy as they are not corrupted by the system yet. Not as entitled, no bad habits, etc.

 

[Kramer]

Yeah send a bunch of OTS hires to level 9 and above while many CPCs are stuck at levels 4-8.

I'm sure that won't piss anyone off. Not that the FAA or natca cares. "Keep putting in your time and paying your natca/PAC dues BrOtherrrr"

 

[Mike Kilo]

Yeah send a bunch of OTS hires to level 9 and above while many CPCs are stuck at levels 4-8.

I'm sure that won't piss anyone off. Not that the FAA or natca cares. "Keep putting in your time and paying your natca/PAC dues BrOtherrrr"

They’ve been doing this since NCEPT started and before as well with nepotism. We have seen so many level 4-7 get spots at 10-12 garden spots while the 8-9 get passed over since they can’t release in the last 8 years.

If we want it fair it really needs to be based on the rating of air traffic control score. Time and experience. Make it competitive.

 

[ROMAJC]

Yeah send a bunch of OTS hires to level 9 and above while many CPCs are stuck at levels 4-8.

I'm sure that won't piss anyone off. Not that the FAA or natca cares. "Keep putting in your time and paying your natca/PAC dues BrOtherrrr"

Can have both, they did it before when we were well staffed.

Need some scoring system for both new hires and transfers. A level 5 tower controller is not going to be any better than a new hire for a level 12 tracon. Just come up with an aptitude testing system, and take people no matter if they are a new hire, tower, where ever.

Many of the low level transfers just quit. And the ones who do certify try to instantly leave to a sup job or lose their medical and take all the front office jobs from older controllers who actually deserve them.

 

[ncssailor]

Direct hires don’t bring enough numbers. That would still waste time and result in the termination of dozens of good candidates for other slower facilities. I think you’re blind to the fact that starting slow and gaining experience to move up to busier facilities works. Not just experience working traffic, but as an agency employee, as a BUE, how to work the slate book, dealing with bullshit from OS/OMs. The environment at busier facilities is NOT like most lower levels.

All in all, there is a reason the agency will not let people go direct to busy facilities, (Z’s are obviously different) kind of like how the Union and the agency won’t discuss a serious pay raise for changing times. We would quite literally have to change federal law to raise the statutory pay cap for that so a new pay schedule could be generated, since those at 12’s get paid the same as SES/4 star general officers.

There are reasons why the agency doesn’t make drastic changes like these. You guys need to understand the impact of something like that. Not to mention the CPCs who would quit because they’re tired of training shitty devs that barely made it past the sims.


For clarity, I am referring to OTS since that’s the bulk of the FAA’s hiring pool.

But I’ll say that the CTI streamlining was a good move, they get more classroom time that the academy and actual live training/experience.

Low levels are getting burnt out, we can barely train to keep our heads above water and then we see a slight relief from training someone gets picked up which is great for them but then we are back to shit staffing. Some of facility staffing numbers really fuck the facility constantly. There is hope with CRWG but when will that get to the point we start seeing benefits?

 

[Kramer]

Low levels are getting burnt out, we can barely train to keep our heads above water and then we see a slight relief from training someone gets picked up which is great for them but then we are back to shit staffing. Some of facility staffing numbers really fuck the facility constantly. There is hope with CRWG but when will that get to the point we start seeing benefits?

CRWG is a pipe dream. My facility...14 to 22.?? An increase of 50% staffing? Didn't the FAA see a total net increase of 15 CPCs last year. And if my facilities goal is a 50% increase, what about everyone else? What about the mandatory 6 day work week facilities?

We probably need an net increase of 750 CPCs each year for the next 3-4 years, thats just to tread water for when the next retirement wave hits in 6-8 years. If your not retiring in 6-8 years good luck!!

Edit: So do you trust the FAA to hire and retain? Many people quitting. How will they hire and train MANY in the next few years? If they were to triple capacity at OKC, what would that net? And that's probably not an option to increase infrastructure that quick.

If you got less than 5-8 years in, you might want to explore other options. I can't recommend this job to anyone right now.

And NATCa, you didn't see this coming in 2017/2019? I get it's the FAAs job to hire, but don't you want more members? Or to look out for current members? Why didn't you go to congress 7-10 years ago?

 

[SunnyATC]

They’ve been doing this since NCEPT started and before as well with nepotism. We have seen so many level 4-7 get spots at 10-12 garden spots while the 8-9 get passed over since they can’t release in the last 8 years.

If we want it fair it really needs to be based on the rating of air traffic control score. Time and experience. Make it competitive.

Fill vacant spots with controllers in the agency. Let the gaining facilities determine who they want. Then backfill immediately to the losing facilities with new hires. I don’t get what’s so hard. Every facility should be eligible to release one per quarter.

 

[OpenSkies]

Fill vacant spots with controllers in the agency. Let the gaining facilities determine who they want. Then backfill immediately to the losing facilities with new hires. I don’t get what’s so hard. Every facility should be eligible to release one per quarter.

To release once a quarter you need a certification once a quarter or your bleeding lower levels dry.

 

[32andBelow]

They kinda did lol I’ll give you that.

Coffee was talking about washing them out and firing them on the premise that they’d still be inside their one year probationary period, which is a shit take and isn’t quite how that works but there’s also no guarantee they would be offered a NEST list in that event. And if they do, that’s already one washout on their record. And before everyone says “well then don’t suck” we’re supposed to be hiring, training and fixing our staffing issue. Not playing as judges on America’s Next Top Controller, so why do this in the first place. Sure, I would theoretically say give a NEST for anyone promising. But let’s be honest, what would that number look like for a bunch of OTS peeps walking straight into a level 12 with zero experience?

Because hiring people to live where they want to live I paramount to fixing staffing