Controller Workforce Plan 2024-2033

[Ad1234]

Yeah this. Sure there are some absolute snoozer towers that should be contracted or even closed altogether, and there are definitely some FCTs that need to be brought back into the fold. But IMO the 804 consolidations reduce options for people who want to move back home but still work at a decent-level facility. Now the options will be to move to the super-TRACON, earn more money, but stay away from family... or move back home for a pay cut.

Unfortunately after looking at 8 years of ncept, the data just doesn’t support this theory with the very few errs to facilities that might qualify for this. Yes there are some who want to “go home” but most of those people would take a reasonable distance with a significant pay increase over whatever going home looks like.

 

[Somenewguy]

Unfortunately after looking at 8 years of ncept, the data just doesn’t support this theory with the very few errs to facilities that might qualify for this. Yes there are some who want to “go home” but most of those people would take a reasonable distance with a significant pay increase over whatever going home looks like.

I think it's important to remember that the system itself skews the data. Like people in facilities that are 10 below required to release probably don't have a lot of ERRs on file. Not because people don't want to leave, but because they know they cant.

I think you'll find the same thing with people who want to go to their preferred facility but know that it probably will never line up due to facility priority or staffing of receiving facility. If you know five of your coworkers want to go to ORD, JAX, I90, then you probably aren't going to your level 4 Farmville Tower before the slot gets filled with an academy grad.

 

[Ad1234]

I think it's important to remember that the system itself skews the data. Like people in facilities that are 10 below required to release probably don't have a lot of ERRs on file. Not because people don't want to leave, but because they know they cant.

I think you'll find the same thing with people who want to go to their preferred facility but know that it probably will never line up due to facility priority or staffing of receiving facility. If you know five of your coworkers want to go to ORD, JAX, I90, then you probably aren't going to your level 4 Farmville Tower before the slot gets filled with an academy grad.

I don’t disagree the data is skewed, but I still think we’d still see more random selections through the years. And they just don’t exist. One more eRR costs your nothing to your home facility, also I’ve been to 4 facilities now and people don’t want to downgrade their pay. I understand and appreciate the sentiment of wanting to go home, but the actual desire amongst the work force seems few and very far in between.

 

[Dolan]

Unfortunately after looking at 8 years of ncept, the data just doesn’t support this theory with the very few errs to facilities that might qualify for this. Yes there are some who want to “go home” but most of those people would take a reasonable distance with a significant pay increase over whatever going home looks like.

I've looked at the past selections too and agree. People are chasing the desirable facilities over being home.

This is also the reason I don't think local hiring is going to fix anything. Once that Juneau native gets hired on a local bid to work in that tower and realizes what people in Houston or Charlotte make for the amount of work they do he's going to put paperwork in there just like the rest of people stuck in the shitty spots.

 

[Mike Kilo]

From the facilities I’ve been at the biggest reason people stay put is by being washed out of a larger facility. Half of my first facility were center washouts and they were lifers. Not interested in trying to train again and risk the decent lives they have set up. They also didn’t want to move when the facility was consolidated. Even some younger people who started there didn’t want to relocate even to a bigger city and a pay raise.

They can easily allow a 3rd round option where employees at level 7 and below can swap with some lower staffing numbers. Especially since the training time for them to be usable as staffing on at least one is probably pretty short.

Just like they could easily allow trainees who haven’t started training yet to swap. That would help cut down on future ERRs but wouldn’t stop people chasing $$.

Local hiring won’t hurt but it also won’t solve anything really. There will still be people constantly trying to leave.

I’m 100% against consolidation and reducing the amount of facilities and also controllers. If you think staffing will be fixed by consolidations you haven’t worked for the government long enough.

As someone else mentioned I believe consolidations will just show the FAA that they can privatize which I am also against. Fewer facilities, and fewer employees imo will lead to less representation and pull. Natca already feels like it’s losing its teeth. Imagine having 25% less BUEs to negotiate for. I guess they can continue to rely on contract facilities to shore up the FAA loses.

 

[Deuce]

I've thought about the problems with local hiring a lot, even when it was by state people would just pick states with more facilities to get in then try to get somewhere else immediately

What if when you're at the academy in OKC, you have the option to either continue like normal and get a random list like it is now, or you can choose any facility under level 7 or 8 with a vacancy but if you go this way you have to stay there for 10 or 15 years or something. Then people couldn't say they never got a chance to go to their little home tower, but you also wouldn't have people sniping facilities that are easy to err out of. And you could still try and go get a high 3 after the timer is up if that's something you're interested in. Most regular jobs obviously you're signing up to only work where you get hired... I feel like if you know this route is an option you'd get a ton of people applying from the facilities nobody else wants to be at right?

I also think if you get a tol through ncept you shouldn't be eligible for another one for like 3 years whether you accept it or not. That way people only bid places they really want to go and aren't just shotgunning it and screwing somebody else over by denying a tol

 

[Mike Kilo]

I did the exact thing you mentioned. It was state bids and I applied for 13 of them. Now will say I turned down the first location they gave me lol.

I’m a little extreme but I feel it you accept a job offer that is now your job. Report as assigned or be awol. Outside of hardship criteria enjoy your new location that you got over all your coworkers bidding. If you turn down an offer no ERRing for a year. It screws over your coworkers as well as blocking the facility you bid for.

 

[SquawkHijack]

Im not sure killing jobs for future generations is considered a win win. When those small facilities get contracted out the pay will be shit with little benefits. Not to mention sending people out of the academy to lvl 7s and above who knows what that would entail training wise….

Why would any of us FAA Controllers miss those low level towers when we all want better pay and a better geographic location anyway? And what jobs would be killed when you yourself said they will [likely] get contracted out anyway? And why would pay be an issue? The level 4 and 5 towers would probably be paid more as a contract tower. About the only thing I agree with in what you said is the reduction in benefits if going contract.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I don’t disagree the data is skewed, but I still think we’d still see more random selections through the years. And they just don’t exist. One more eRR costs your nothing to your home facility, also I’ve been to 4 facilities now and people don’t want to downgrade their pay. I understand and appreciate the sentiment of wanting to go home, but the actual desire amongst the work force seems few and very far in between.

The best test to this theory will be when most centers become eligible to release. We can’t forget most centers have not been eligible for the majority of NCEPTs existence

 

[RB]

Open up local hiring to 7 and below facilities, make them sign an agreement to stay at that facility for 5 years before you can err if you get hired locally.

If you go to the academy and choose the random facility list, you can get 8s-9s (10s?) on your list. No requirement to stay if you go random list route.

Let the people who want to work in their home town have that option, guarantee your staffing with those bodies for a minimum of 5 years. The people who take the random list risk will have the option for better pay, no requirement to stay after qualification.

AG pay needs to scale based off of the level of facility they're training at (with exceptions of extremely high COLA areas in a low level facility to also get more pay, including CPCs). No reason an AG should be making 50-60k getting sent to ZMA. Generally speaking, higher level facility, higher cost of living.

Prior experience should be getting up to level 10s for terminal, and have centers on there with the requirement of going to the academy for enroute school.

 

[Ad1234]

The best test to this theory will be when most centers become eligible to release. We can’t forget most centers have not been eligible for the majority of NCEPTs existence

It’s a solid point. Chances are most would stay center which are in major metro areas. The likely hood that many would choose to leave en route to go to their podunk terminal after making good money seems very unlikely. it would most likely still show that money over home but close to home for most controllers would be just fine and still support consolidation efforts.

 

[BDUB]

Why would any of us FAA Controllers miss those low level towers when we all want better pay and a better geographic location anyway? And what jobs would be killed when you yourself said they will [likely] get contracted out anyway? And why would pay be an issue? The level 4 and 5 towers would probably be paid more as a contract tower. About the only thing I agree with in what you said is the reduction in benefits if going contract.

If you think contractors pay more than lvl 4 and 5 towers you’re out of touch. Not to mentions benefits. Let’s just talk about things you care about and that would impact you because clearly you care about nobody below you. 1. Controllers have to start somewhere and isn’t it nice that they can start at low levels get their feet wet and start moving up. 2. More places for people to go out of the academy instead of the same lvl 7s and 8s. Potentially getting them closer to home if the placement process wasn’t absolute garbage. 3. IF those lvl 4 and 5 towers are going to get contracted out they BETTER be used as a bargaining chip to bring other towers in. NATCA and the FAA eliminating jobs should never be celebrated in my opinion.

 

[Ad1234]

If you think contractors pay more than lvl 4 and 5 towers you’re out of touch. Not to mentions benefits. Let’s just talk about things you care about and that would impact you because clearly you care about nobody below you. 1. Controllers have to start somewhere and isn’t it nice that they can start at low levels get their feet wet and start moving up. 2. More places for people to go out of the academy instead of the same lvl 7s and 8s. Potentially getting them closer to home if the placement process wasn’t absolute garbage. 3. IF those lvl 4 and 5 towers are going to get contracted out they BETTER be used as a bargaining chip to bring other towers in. NATCA and the FAA eliminating jobs should never be celebrated in my opinion.

not celebrated but realize that it will be a reality. i agree some contracts should be brought back in. the way i see it there are approx 2000 people at the 130 level 6 and below facilities. Even if a third are closed and those employees end up elsewhere, that’s 700 people who got a raise, that’s a large number of faculties receiving people they desperately need. And with the overall reduction long term of the 13k they think we currently need we could say, we are now saving you money so pay us more.

 

[SquawkHijack]

If you think contractors pay more than lvl 4 and 5 towers you’re out of touch. Not to mentions benefits. Let’s just talk about things you care about and that would impact you because clearly you care about nobody below you. 1. Controllers have to start somewhere and isn’t it nice that they can start at low levels get their feet wet and start moving up. 2. More places for people to go out of the academy instead of the same lvl 7s and 8s. Potentially getting them closer to home if the placement process wasn’t absolute garbage. 3. IF those lvl 4 and 5 towers are going to get contracted out they BETTER be used as a bargaining chip to bring other towers in. NATCA and the FAA eliminating jobs should never be celebrated in my opinion.

1. Controllers can still start at 6 or 7 towers, some of which may remain up/downs for an operational advantage. 2. More places besides the same 7s and 8s? You know how many people all the centers need??
3. I agree and have no argument there.
4. If towers are contracted there aren’t any jobs being eliminated. FAA jobs maybe, but a controller is a controller. I personally think 4 and 5 VFR towers would be better served privatized on the sole fact that the FAA employs too many brain dead district managers that grew up in high level facilities to realize not all facilities are the same. All the money, equipment, procedures that make sense and resources go to the high levels and SOME mids, the agency doesn’t care about lows, especially VFR towers so I think contracting would be a better move for them.

 

[BDUB]

1. Controllers can still start at 6 or 7 towers, some of which may remain up/downs for an operational advantage. 2. More places besides the same 7s and 8s? You know how many people all the centers need??
3. I agree and have no argument there.
4. If towers are contracted there aren’t any jobs being eliminated. FAA jobs maybe, but a controller is a controller. I personally think 4 and 5 VFR towers would be better served privatized on the sole fact that the FAA employs too many brain dead district managers that grew up in high level facilities to realize not all facilities are the same. All the money, equipment, procedures that make sense and resources go to the high levels and SOME mids, the agency doesn’t care about lows, especially VFR towers so I think contracting would be a better move for them.

If that’s your argument why not contract out every facility in the NAS MAYBE the contractors will take better care of you then the FAA 😂 I just don’t think a lot of people understand what happens at contract facilities. You think you’re under staffed at a FAA facility contractors would have even less employees. It’s staying on position for easily 7hrs out of a 8hr shift if not more with mandatory overtime….positions can’t be split down because there’s nobody else there to help. All the while you’re making a fraction of what you make in the FAA with no pension and worse medical plans….anyone voting for future generations to endure that and expecting people to jump at the opportunity to be ATC is out of their mind but that’s just my thoughts having worked for both 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[SquawkHijack]

If that’s your argument why not contract out every facility in the NAS MAYBE the contractors will take better care of you then the FAA 😂 I just don’t think a lot of people understand what happens at contract facilities. You think you’re under staffed at a FAA facility contractors would have even less employees. It’s staying on position for easily 7hrs out of a 8hr shift if not more with mandatory overtime….positions can’t be split down because there’s nobody else there to help. All the while you’re making a fraction of what you make in the FAA with no pension and worse medical plans….anyone voting for future generations to endure that and expecting people to jump at the opportunity to be ATC is out of their mind but that’s just my thoughts having worked for both 🤷🏻‍♂️

That’s not what I said at all. I said in my opinion low level (4 and 5) VFR towers would be better served if they went contract because the FAA doesn’t care about them, which I think a lot at lower levels would agree. Also I know someone at a contract tower that’s a 4 equivalent and they make within ~$5k of what did when I was at a 5 up/down. I can tell you skimmed and read very little of what I said, then blew it way out of context. If you’re not gonna take this seriously then I’m not going to engage in dialogue with you.

 

[BDUB]

That’s not what I said at all. I said in my opinion low level (4 and 5) VFR towers would be better served if they went contract because the FAA doesn’t care about them, which I think a lot at lower levels would agree. Also I know someone at a contract tower that’s a 4 equivalent and they make within ~$5k of what did when I was at a 5 up/down. I can tell you skimmed and read very little of what I said, then blew it way out of context. If you’re not gonna take this seriously then I’m not going to engage in dialogue with you.

Sounds good to me brotha you’re a little too far gone to talk about this stuff with anyways. I worked at a lvl 5 and work at a contract facility right now base pay is almost the exact same and I do 10x the amount of traffic a day but go off about how you think people at low level facilities want to be contracted out and lose a pension med benefits and all the other benefits of the FAA lmao 😂

 

[SquawkHijack]

Sounds good to me brotha you’re a little too far gone to talk about this stuff with anyways. I worked at a lvl 5 and work at a contract facility right now base pay is almost the exact same and I do 10x the amount of traffic a day but go off about how you think people at low level facilities want to be contracted out and lose a pension med benefits and all the other benefits of the FAA lmao 😂

I didn’t say everyone at a 4 or 5 should be exiled from the agency and lose their benefits either. Move them to other facilities and let the contractors have the 4s and 5s. Just the facility, not the people. Oh, look at that, no FAA jobs lost either. Something else you blew out of proportion.

 

[BDUB]

I didn’t say everyone at a 4 or 5 should be exiled from the agency and lose their benefits either. Move them to other facilities and let the contractors have the 4s and 5s. Just the facility, not the people. Oh, look at that, no FAA jobs lost either. Something else you blew out of proportion.

We can just agree to disagree my guy. If you contract out facilities that is less jobs being offered within the agency. I get what you’re trying to say but there’s a set number of controllers needed to fill the FAA right now. If you start contracting out facilities that number shrinks. Now if you’re talking about increasing all of the 7 and above staffing numbers so jobs aren’t lost they’re just at a different facilities that’s a completely different argument.

 

[Somenewguy]

To make an apples to apples comparison of pay you've really got to add in the FAA pension because contract towers have none. 4.9% less per paycheck for people entering FERS, but 39% more pay later assuming you're retired for as long as you worked (25 years). So a contractor and an FAA employee both making 50/hr is more like 50 vs 70/hr.

Also government health insurance, life insurance, paid time off, time on position are all better with the FAA